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| 10 or 15 minute turns https://wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17522 |
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| Author: | Dean Webster [ Sun Sep 22, 2024 6:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | 10 or 15 minute turns |
Hi all, I haven't seen all the titles but it seems that where a title has both 10 and 15 minute scenarios, the latest upgrade has moved the 15 minute versions to the top of the selection list. It's not something I'd previously given a great deal of thought to, but now I need to make a conscious choice when starting a new game. I believe the 10 minute turns are better for new players in particular, giving them more time to react. Some examples More opportunity to form square (French regulations were for a line to form square in 100 seconds, and even less for column, though in the confusion of battle it usually did take longer) Less ability for units to march around units, preventing their retreat due to ZOC, and attacking them in the same turn I guess where both players are experienced and evenly matched, 15 minute turns might provide a greater challenge. While I'm happy to play 15 minute turns, my preference is for 10 minute where available, but I'd like to know what others think. |
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| Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 10 or 15 minute turns |
I stopped using 10-minute turns for several reasons: 1. The artillery FP values are the same for both 10- and 15-minute modes. This effectively makes artillery deadlier in 10-minute turns, disrupting the balance between various arms, especially infantry versus artillery. Attempting to use line formation in 10-minute turns is likely to fail, forcing the game into: a) reliance on melee, and b) a game of "who can avoid being hit by artillery fire the most." 2. 15-minute turns produce far more realistic results regarding troop attrition dynamics. For line units with no fatigue, recovering from routs and reordering typically takes 60-90 minutes in the 15-minute mode, whereas it only takes 40-60 minutes in the 10-minute mode. 3. Overall, 10-minute turns accelerate the pace of engagements into much shorter, less historical timeframes, making units more lethal to each other. Historically, we know that: "The resistance that a typical force of 8,000 to 10,000 troops of all arms can offer, even against significantly superior enemy forces and in less than favorable terrain, generally lasts several hours. If the opposing force is only slightly superior or equal in strength, this resistance may extend to half a day..." — Clausewitz, The Principles of War, Chapter VI: Duration of a Battle. In 10-minute turns, this "several hours" of resistance is out of the question, especially when combined with ZOC kills. 4. Operationally, 15-minute turns are more enjoyable as players receive faster feedback on operational developments. 5. With 15-minute turns, fewer emails need to be exchanged. This is particularly important in large campaigns and scenarios, where 10-minute turns make some of them nearly unplayable. I consider myself a committed player, but I struggle to see myself completing 300+ turns. This is especially painful in scenarios with smaller forces but extensive marching, such as battles involving 25,000-30,000 troops stretched over 80-90 turns. 6. The recent standardization project for 15-minute turns has made it easier to switch between titles, as movement allowances are now consistent. I no longer need to worry about different movement costs when juggling three separate PBEM titles. |
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| Author: | Sergio Porres [ Mon Sep 23, 2024 10:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 10 or 15 minute turns |
| Author: | Dean Webster [ Sun Oct 06, 2024 2:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 10 or 15 minute turns |
A considered response as always Alexey. I’d counter with the following. 1 – Artillery. Due to it taking more turns to come into contact, I agree that artillery has become more effective. To counter that, I’d recommend setting Auto Defensive Fire to minimum for both Artillery and Infantry. That stops artillery firing off at every second target that moves into sight. Historically, artillery did not switch targets every couple of minutes across their entire field of fire. They fired straight ahead at the same target for reasonable periods of time, at a considered pace. Only when the enemy was within close range did they up their fire rate at that target. I think 10 minute turns and short range defensive fire model that much better. 2 – Attrition dynamics. I don't agree. Yes it takes less “time” to recover in 10 minute turns, but I that is offset by an increased likelihood in them disrupting more times in the same period of time. If a unit is in combat 6 times in an hour as opposed to 4, it will disrupt/rout 50% more often. Since you can't move as far, and will therefore find it harder to move into direct contact, I think it also reflects the historical difficulty of actually closing with the enemy better. 3 – Increased pace of engagement. I’m not sure how you arrive at this. It still takes the same amount of time to move the same distance. Shorter turns do not affect that. Yes, mathematically you do more damage in a given time period, but the "time" in combat is reduced accordingly. If a fire fight lasts 4 turns in a 15 minute game, it's still only going to last 4 turns in a 10 minute. You aren't fighting for 6 turns and increasing the casualty count. You also mention ZOC kills. My argument is that ZOC kills are harder to achieve because units can not move as far, thereby limiting the ability to exert ZOCs around an enemy. In my experience, I’ve not seen games end faster because they were played in 10 minute turns. If anything it’s the other way around. Perhaps an examination of the WDS game log would shed some light on that, since the number of turns per game is recorded. 4 – 15 minute turns are more enjoyable. That is a subjective assessment and is what I asked in the poll. I think, especially for new players, 10 minute turns are more enjoyable, exactly for the reason you mention, increased feedback, especially if they are playing against more experienced players. Players get less feedback in 15 minute turns than 10. When the enemy can move 50% further in a turn, you get much less time to see a developing situation. 10 minute turns mean that a player has more opportunity to see and react to enemy actions. I feel this is also in direct opposition to your previous point. Errors are more easily exploited in 15 minute turns, thereby increasing the pace of engagement. 5 – Fewer turns. This is a valid, but again, a subjective point. Personally I prefer longer games and have no issue spending large numbers of turns marching around the map. I’ll admit I may be in the minority on that point. 6 – Standardization. Supposedly 10 minute turns are supposed to be standardized between titles as well, though I’m not 100% sure on that. If you only play 10 minute turns, it isn’t a problem |
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| Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Sun Oct 06, 2024 10:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 10 or 15 minute turns |
| Author: | Bill Peters [ Sun Oct 06, 2024 6:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 10 or 15 minute turns |
We discussed this at length long ago re: artillery losses. Its a wash. The 15 min. format always allowed for unrealistic cutting off of forces due the inability to react to the long movement. Charlie Cutshall did cut the MPs down from the Talonsoft PDT files which was good but it still meant that with the road and pike costing only 1 MP that units could whisk down the road. The new MP rates for the 15 min. format allows light cavalry to move further thus enhancing the Blitz format of play. I stopped playing the 15 min. version even before the 1.08 update came out and the light cavalry moved the same rate as the heavy cavalry. During a Battle of Salamanca I noted how fast each sides' cavalry could move. Given that you have mounted fire, not as an option, but forced on us. I gave up on ever updating my game again. If I ever played the series again I probably would go looking for the version that doesn't use the dumb cavalry mounted fire. Paco Palomo and I discussed this when it came out. His findings were similar with mine: the cavalry can eat up supply points which are very much needed for the infantry. Anyway, that is the reason I decided to stop play for now. I would want to find like-minded players who would stick to the older version. Any graphics enhancement, for the most part, can be used in the older versions. If they want to use the phase format of play then they need to allow squaring in the Defense phase JUST LIKE Talonsoft had it originally. The Threat Zone still can spoil the attempt but it would give the defender more of a chance to repel a charge. Dean - thanks for posting this poll. I hope that every member of the club takes time to participate. I will always cling to the older versions of the game as the scenarios I built using the 10 min. format are more balanced for them than using the 15 min. format or even the newer 10 Min. PDT files. A lot of work went into the playtesting by the teams I worked with. Its a bit of an effort now to check each one and change the victory conditions. Just too many files to go through. |
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| Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Mon Oct 21, 2024 2:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 10 or 15 minute turns |
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