Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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Overrunning Artillery (HPS)
https://wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6852		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Overrunning Artillery (HPS)
Has anyone been able to figure out when artillery is overrun by a cavalry charge (so that it ends up uncrewed) rather than eliminated? In the HPS games, that is. Obviously it isn't something simple like it's meleed from the front and overrun from flank and rear because I just experienced a frontal overrun (for the first time, I think).

Any idea? [8)]

<center>Général de Division D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
Baron d'Empire, Duc des Pyramides
Commandant de la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3ème Division[/url], VIème Corps Bavarois, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant l'Ecole de Mars, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant de la Brigade de Tirailleurs de la Jeune Garde
Image</center>
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Artillery that is MELEED successfully is removed.

When it is charged by cavalry and overrun during their movement then the guns are still present but the crew is gone.

If the artillery is LIMBERED and overrun then it is eliminated.

Correct me if I am wrong on this but I think that that handles the various cases.

Its pretty much the same as it was in Battleground.

Oberst Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Reserve Korps, Austrian Army
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:10 am ]
Post subject: 
I am sure you're right, Bill.

What I am trying to find out is *when* an overrun of unlimbered artillery by charging cavalry occurs. When will it overrun the guns (this uncrewing them) and keep moving, and when will it stop before the guns so that they have to be meleed, thus taking them out (if successful)?

<center>Général de Division D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
Baron d'Empire, Duc des Pyramides
Commandant de la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3ème Division[/url], VIème Corps Bavarois, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant l'Ecole de Mars, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant de la Brigade de Tirailleurs de la Jeune Garde
Image</center>
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:16 am ]
Post subject: 
The user manual says

"Note that charging Cavalry has two options when encountering unlimbered enemy Artillery by itself. It can choose to overrun the unit, thus rendering it Uncrewed, or it can choose to stop and melee attack the Artillery unit in the same turn. If it wins this melee, then the enemy Artillery unit is eliminated."

Now obviously it's not the player making this choice ... at least nobody ever offered it to me. [:I] So it's the game engine, right? How?

<center>Général de Division D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
Baron d'Empire, Duc des Pyramides
Commandant de la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3ème Division[/url], VIème Corps Bavarois, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant l'Ecole de Mars, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant de la Brigade de Tirailleurs de la Jeune Garde
Image</center>
Author:  Kosyanenko [ Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:16 am ]
Post subject: 
If the arty is stacked with other units that can be overrun (skirms, leaders, wagoons, limbered arty. Not sure of routed and isolated units). So if the arty is stacked only with such units it can be overrun if the test is passed. The test just like the one difining if the skirms could be overrun. Each gun counts 50 men, if memory helps. [8D]

Strange you asked. This was somewhere in the manual....[:I]

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
Polkovnik Anton Kosyanenko</b></center>
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:30 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kosyanenko</i>
Strange you asked. This was somewhere in the manual....[:I]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I don't know the manual by heart, you know. [8)]

Thanks for the explanation.

<center>Général de Division D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
Baron d'Empire, Duc des Pyramides
Commandant de la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3ème Division[/url], VIème Corps Bavarois, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant l'Ecole de Mars, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant de la Brigade de Tirailleurs de la Jeune Garde
Image</center>
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:56 am ]
Post subject: 
So Dierk, you are saying that you want to know if the engine has them stop and melee or it will allow them to overrun and you want to know what the criteria is that it will overrun.

Its usually the size thing. If the overruning cavalry are of a certain size its pretty much automatic. If not then a routine is run and if the percentage check results demand that the overrun cannot take place then they have to melee the guns.

Same thing with skirmishers if you think about it. Pretty much the same methodology.

Oberst Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Reserve Korps, Austrian Army
Author:  Sir Muddy [ Sat Jul 02, 2005 12:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Be careful... if you don't want to overrun the guns then it is best to begin the melee from the drop down melee menu. Otherwise, if you drag and drop on the hex with the guns, the engine may just overrun and uncrew the guns rather than destroying them by melee.

Limbered guns can always be overrun from any direction and destroyed. Unlimbered guns must be meleed. But you already know that...

FM Sir 'Muddy' Jones, KG
2nd Life Guards, Household Cavalry
CO, Cavalry Corps
Allied CiC
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sir Muddy</i>
Limbered guns can always be overrun from any direction and destroyed. Unlimbered guns must be meleed. But you already know that...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Actually limbered or unlimbered doesn't seem to matter (in the HPS games). I have overrun limbered guns and I have meleed them too (usually doesn't hurt them much).

The difference seems to be that limbered artillery is eliminated in an overrun while in battery it becomes uncrewed.

<center>Général de Division D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
Baron d'Empire, Duc des Pyramides
Commandant de la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3ème Division[/url], VIème Corps Bavarois, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant l'Ecole de Mars, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant de la Brigade de Tirailleurs de la Jeune Garde
Image</center>
Author:  Francisco Palomo [ Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:41 am ]
Post subject: 
Dierk,

To answer your original question:

1) If a cavalry unit <u>moves</u> through the hex occupied by an unlimbered arty, it overruns it;
2) Since unlimbered arty have a ZOC, cav will lose their MPs when it advances to the front hexside of a btty, stopping its movement and preventing an "overrun", but;
3) If a cav charges and successfully melees units in the hex immediately in front of a btty, it will now have 1-3 "MPs" with which it can overrun the btty, even if it is in "covered terrain."[8D].

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo
<i>Comte de Marseille
Duc d'Abrantes</i>
Author:  Jonathan Thayer [ Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:54 am ]
Post subject: 
In a Waterloo battle yesterday in a charge I expended my movement adjacent to two limbered batteries. I meleed with them and they retreated. Then with my following movement I overran them and eliminated them so I wonder if is has to do with their facing.

Marechal Jonathan Thayer
Moyenne Garde
Duc de Saalfeld et Prince de Friedland
10/III
Armee du Nord




jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net
Author:  Francisco Palomo [ Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:44 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jon Thayer</i>
<br />In a Waterloo battle yesterday in a charge I expended my movement adjacent to two limbered batteries. I meleed with them and they retreated. Then with my following movement I overran them and eliminated them so I wonder if is has to do with their facing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Jon,

As noted by Bill, there is a "test" to see if the cav has a sufficient preponderance in strength to carry out the overrun. Since a flank attack gives the attacker a 40% strength bonus, a flanking attack increases the likelihood of a succesful overrun.

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo
<i>Comte de Marseille
Duc d'Abrantes</i>
Author:  John Corbin [ Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:58 am ]
Post subject: 
Why did HPS allow for the uncrewing of arty if it cannot be recrewd... ?

Marechal John Corbin
Chief of Staff
La Grande Armee
Author:  Francisco Palomo [ Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by John Corbin</i>
<br />Why did HPS allow for the uncrewing of arty if it cannot be recrewd... ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

John,

If an "uncrewed" arty is recaptured by <u>infantry</u>, on the following turn it is automatically "re-crewed." This aspect of the game engine has remained unchanged since the original BG engine. Suggested changes, such as the creation of separate "crew" units, have, so far, been rejected by JT.[:(]

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo
<i>Comte de Marseille
Duc d'Abrantes</i>
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