Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

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<b>Triumph of Arms</b>

Originally Posted by Stefan Brandl of the Prussian Armee at the [url="http://battleground-club.de"]INWC[/url]

[url="http://nwcg.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1150619934"]The Forum Thread[/url]

So well written I decided to use it here!!

On June 18th 1815 the last (but not decisive) battle of the Napoleonic wars was fought.Napoleon had tried all day long to break Wellington's line on the Mont St. Jean, but he failed due to the stiff resistance of the British, German and Dutch/Belgian defenders.

At around 1.00 PM the first Prussians arrived on the field, what caused the French emperor to detach about 10.000 men (later to be joined by another 5.000 men of his Young Guard) on his right flank to repulse the Prussians. When, after numerous, costly attacks on the allied line, the French had finally been able to occupy La Haye Sainte, the fortified farm protecting Wellington'S center, Napoleon thought that the moment had come to decide the battle.

He sent in his famous "Old Guard", the most senior and elite unit of his infantry, to break the enemy line. These veterans fought very brave, but were heavily outnumbered by the British, Dutch, Hannoverian and Brunswick defenders and were literally shot into pieces. The attack was repulsed. At about the same time Bluchers Prussian managed to again storm Plancenoit and break through the French right.

This was the final blow to the French's morale, causing the army to turn to flight. With Wellington's army too exhausted from the day's fight, the Prussians pursued the beaten French. At around 9.00 PM Wellington and Blucher met near La Belle Alliance.

Waterloo was not an English/British vitory as well as it wasn't a Prussian victory. Only the combined forces of several armies had been able to break the might of the French emperor the year before and only the combined forces of Wellington's and Blucher's armies enabled them to finally defeat Napoleon in the Belgian theatre...
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Herr Windbagenführer General der Infanterie Scott Prinz "Vorwärts" Ludwig von Saxe-Weimar
(Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian)
Aide-du-Kamp and Webmaster
Kommandeur Garde-Grenadiere-Korps & 3. Infanterie-Brigade
Heer am Niederrhein
Preußische Armee

Vorwärts Meine Kinder, Vorwärts!! Glory and History Await You On This Day!!

This Day, Today, Marschall Vorwärts' Day!!

[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]Königliche Preußische Armee[/url]

[url="http://www.networkforgood.org"]Network for Good[/url]

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It could have been very different with Groushy not get lost in strawberry fields

<font color="limegreen"><i>
Colonel [url="nihad.rizvanovic@zg.htnet.hr"]Nihad Rizvanovic[/url]
L'Armée du Rhin
VII Saxon Corps

<font color="beige"><i>The only true conquests, and those which awaken no regrets,
are the conquests obtained over ignorance</i></font id="beige">

http://free-zg.t-com.hr/nixon/

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...or if Ney had not waisted 5000 heavy cav

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<center>Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President</center>

Nevertheless, both of them has their statues in Louvre museum.

<font color="limegreen"><i>
Colonel [url="nihad.rizvanovic@zg.htnet.hr"]Nihad Rizvanovic[/url]
L'Armée du Rhin
VII Saxon Corps

<font color="beige"><i>The only true conquests, and those which awaken no regrets,
are the conquests obtained over ignorance</i></font id="beige">

http://free-zg.t-com.hr/nixon/

</i></font id="limegreen">

Sadly the likes of Suchet, Davout and Berthier were not present.

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Herr Windbagenführer General der Infanterie Scott Prinz "Vorwärts" Ludwig von Saxe-Weimar
(Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian)
Aide-du-Kamp and Webmaster
Kommandeur Garde-Grenadiere-Korps & 3. Infanterie-Brigade
Heer am Niederrhein
Preußische Armee

Vorwärts Meine Kinder, Vorwärts!! Glory and History Await You On This Day!!

This Day, Today, Marschall Vorwärts' Day!!

[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]Königliche Preußische Armee[/url]

[url="http://www.networkforgood.org"]Network for Good[/url]

[url="http://napoleonicwargaming.com"]Napoleonic Wargaming - INWC[/url]</center>

Napoleon's biggest mistakes were the fact he left Davout in Paris, made Soult a chief of staff instead of a battle field commander, Left Ney to run things, Ney was never that good at independent command, Grouchy was a good cavalry commander, nothing more. He turned Murat down, he could have been useful at Waterloo, and yes he left Suchet in the South. I think that if Davout had been there instead of Grouchy things would have been so differnt. Davout was more than an equal to Blucher, in fact by far better, and Davout was at least an Equal to Wellington. Its funny, but Napoleon made the same mistakes in 1813 at Liepzig with his choices in marshals in certain commands. He left Davout in Hamburg, St Cyr in Dreseden, let Oudinot, and then Ney face Bernadotte, niether was a match for him, But Davout and St Cyr woudl have been. I also think he made a mistake with Murat in charge in the last stages of the retreat from Russia, instead of even Eugene. In the end if Napoleon had used Davout at either battle/campaigns things would have been so different.

Maréchal Tony R.Malone, Comte d'Auvergne et Duc de Vauchamps: Division d'Infanterie de la Moyenne Garde; "The Guard may die, But it never surrenders".

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tony malone</i>
<br />Napoleon's biggest mistakes were the fact he left Davout in Paris, made Soult a chief of staff instead of a battle field commander, Left Ney to run things, Ney was never that good at independent command, Grouchy was a good cavalry commander, nothing more. He turned Murat down, he could have been useful at Waterloo, and yes he left Suchet in the South. I think that if Davout had been there instead of Grouchy things would have been so differnt. Davout was more than an equal to Blucher, in fact by far better, and Davout was at least an Equal to Wellington. Its funny, but Napoleon made the same mistakes in 1813 at Liepzig with his choices in marshals in certain commands. He left Davout in Hamburg, St Cyr in Dreseden, let Oudinot, and then Ney face Bernadotte, niether was a match for him, But Davout and St Cyr woudl have been. I also think he made a mistake with Murat in charge in the last stages of the retreat from Russia, instead of even Eugene. In the end if Napoleon had used Davout at either battle/campaigns things would have been so different.

Maréchal Tony R.Malone, Comte d'Auvergne et Duc de Vauchamps: Division d'Infanterie de la Moyenne Garde; "The Guard may die, But it never surrenders".



<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Ney was a fine rearguard commander (1812) and had other credits to his record. But yes, a independent wing commander he was NOT. His command of the Army of Berlin in 1813 was just plain awful. Likewise at Jena he allowed himself to be put into a compromising position.

At Bautzen his more direct route probably cost Napoleon total victory over the Allies.

Davout was the administrator by this time and Napoleon needed someone in Paris he could trust. Like you, I would have liked to have seen Davout at Waterloo filling Ney's boots.

Davout did a much better job than any other Marechal of training his troops. For that reason alone I would rate his corps a cut above the rest in 1805 and throughout the period 1805-1812.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

True Bill, but he was more than just a good administrator and excellent trainer. His battlefield command performance was beyond reproach. I think his record shows him as Napoleon's best, and maybe only second to Napoleoon himself The battle of Aurerstadt showed his quality. Also in almost every other battle from 1805 - 1812, it was Davout that proved a true saving grace.

Maréchal Tony R.Malone, Comte d'Auvergne et Duc de Vauchamps: Division d'Infanterie de la Moyenne Garde; "The Guard may die, But it never surrenders".

Bit've a book, but here goes!

The missing Marshalls.
After Marmont (le Raguser), Napoleon had reason not to fully trust his Marshalls. This was obvious.
Davout, the policeman, was the loyalist of the loyals - he never accepted the Restoration, nor had he sworn any allegiance to Louis XVIII. He was the only one who could be trusted back in Paris (and maintain control). The pity of it is that Davout also never lost a battle! The other Marshalls were all scared fo him and would abey with alacrity - he would've been very handy at Waterloo.
Suchet could be trusted with independent command. Someone had to stop the Austrians.
Augereau & Massena were more interested in counting their loot, (they'd earned it, and some, and were probably too cunning to jump ship from the Burbons while there was still doubt). They hadn't stirred from the South of France when Napoleon landed and while they maintained the Southern borders, were quite content for those in the North to sort out who was boss.
Poor Berthier had died from a fall while watching the Prussians march to the border (apparently it was an accident).
The others were either dead, in retirement, too old or like Macdonald & Moncey, had left the country, remaining true to their oaths of loyalty to the King (they weren't rewarded for it).

The Marshalls Present
Soult had at least held independent command, but as a CoS he left a lot to be desired. Of them all, Grouchy, possibly, could have performed the CoS duties but I reckon he would've been worse than Soult.
D'Erlon wasn't a Marshall yet (I think that he did get to be), but was subject to Ney in any event.
Ney was so obviously suffering from shell-shock it wasn't funny. He should have been in hospital rather than commanding an army (or part of one). He certainly was employed incorrectly; but then, how does one shuffle a Corps to the left while shuffling another to the right...

Mistakes, there were a few...
Not all were French. In fact the Allies' mistakes were legion and with Napoleon's luck on the day would have been just as damning. For a start, why set up on a field without a line of retreat? Wellington did - the only way out was a defile through a forest. OK, see below, they had agreed to meet and they would, but if Blucher had sent word of a retreat from Ligny, Wellington would've been OUTTA there!
A British Heavy Cavalry charge destroyed an early French attack, but was in turn, destroyed by a french counter-charge. The French foot eventually rallied and participated in the action later. the British Cavalry did not. Mind you, they were considered a "throw away" weapon by Wellington (throw 'em in and forget 'em; they're not coming back, win or lose!) What could Wellington have done with some decent Cavalry during the Cuirassier charges of the late afternoon...
Marshall "Vorwarts" was determined, against all military logic, to come to Wellington's aid. That he prevailed spoke volumes. He very nearly didn't make it: Scharnorst and Gniesenau didn't want to go in that direction, that's for sure. It they'd got their way, the Prussians would have retreated. The Prussians did stuff up by attacking piecemeal, but you cannot deny the Young Guard's courage to hold them off as long as they did.

French errors
The first was possibly the most significant error: the artillery deploymet and use. Rain had ruined the battlefield: the artillery commanders had reckoned to delay the battle to the afternoon to allow them to deploy their cannon and the ground to dry out to allow the "bounce" of the cannon balls. Actually, it was more likely incorrect fusing of shell that reduced the effect of the French Artillery - but they all couldn't have been wrong, could they? Some should have gone forward in the attacks and been in action in close range (like at Wagram).
Another significant error: splitting the army. One third is a large number when the whole is outnumbered.

Wellington and Blucher were adhering to a prearranged plan: combine forces; join together and present the largest target possible. Napoleon wouldn't have missed it for the world; he almost did and was a day early! What a difference a day makes: imagine a battle at Ligny-Quatre Bras where the Allies and Prussians are already linked and in place...and can be outmanoeuvred (maybe).

Napoleon did the opposite to the Wellington and Blucher and split his forces after Ligny-Quatre Bras when it would have favoured him otherwise. In the past, he favoured interior lines of action when outnumbered and kept his corps close together so that he could combine their weight against a portion of the enemy's line. His command control was loose, too, with his "open" orders to Grouchy.

Grouchy at least heard the guns (unlike Bernadotte's famous excuse in 1806), but neither of them ordered a march to the battlefield, preferring to "Obey the Emperor".

To finish, and for a contrast, the cammanders on the day acted true to form. Wellington and Blucher operated on the day in the 'old' way: they were in command and did not allow subordinates any independent action. They pointed them and let the arrow loose. Whether it hit or missed was the subordinate's concern.
Napoleon did the opposite and allowed "independent" action, much to his cost.

General de Division Baron Mark Oakford
2e Brigade, 3e Division de Cavalerie,
IIIe Corps d'Armee, L'Armee du Nord

2e Fusilier Chasseurs,
Division d'Infanterie de la Moyenne Garde

Just three nit-picking comments ...

1. D'Erlon never became a Maréchal d'Empire--Grouchy was the twenty-sixth and last ever to be appointed. (D'Erlon became a *royalist* Maréchal in 1843 though!)

2. Scharnhorst died in 1813. And I am not at all sure about Gneisenau's alleged opposition to the Wavre flank march (as portrayed in the 1970 film "Waterloo") - afterall, Gneisenau was an energetic chief-of-staff who conducted the pursuit after the battle on his own account.

3. Once L'Armée du Nord had been divided after Ligny and Grouchy's wing sent off in pursuit of the Prussians, there was no way on earth the French could have reunited before the Allies made contact on the Waterloo field. Granted there was only a very bad road for the Prussians from Wavre to Waterloo, but there was no road at all that would have led there from Grouchy's position south of Wavre and besides, the Prussians were simply closer to the field as the crow flies.

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D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant des Grenadiers à Pied de la Vieille Garde, "les Grognards"
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BTW other generals of Napoleon and Waterloo campaign participants who became *royalist* Maréchals ...

Gérard (IV Corps)
Mouton (VI Corps)
Reille (II Corps)

Actually that leaves, from all the infantry corps commanders, only Vandamme (III) who was not made a Maréchal by his erstwhile enemies later. [8)]

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D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant des Grenadiers à Pied de la Vieille Garde, "les Grognards"
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some good points here....

Mark...

If Davout had been there at waterloo ( I am sure he would have preffered to be ) then I believe the batle could have been won. Napoleon would be more likely to listen at least to Davout and would have been more likely to keep things on track:

1 - Jerome would not have turned a diversionary attack on Hougomont
( this was what Napoleon had intended ) into what it became.

2 - 5000 heavy cav would not have charged without iunfantry support.

If the battle had been won and in abig way, the need for security in Paris would have been moot, no ?

as for arty placement and usage... given the weather what else could he have done.... ?


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<center>Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President</center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br />BTW other generals of Napoleon and Waterloo campaign participants who became *royalist* Maréchals ...

Gérard (IV Corps)
Mouton (VI Corps)
Reille (II Corps)

Actually that leaves, from all the infantry corps commanders, only Vandamme (III) who was not made a Maréchal by his erstwhile enemies later. [8)]

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D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant des Grenadiers à Pied de la Vieille Garde, "les Grognards"
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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You forgot Drouot.

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Herr Windbagenführer General der Infanterie Scott Prinz "Vorwärts" Ludwig von Saxe-Weimar
(Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian)
Aide-du-Kamp and Webmaster
Kommandeur Garde-Grenadiere-Korps & 3. Infanterie-Brigade
Heer am Niederrhein
Preußische Armee

Vorwärts Meine Kinder, Vorwärts!! Glory and History Await You On This Day!!

This Day, Today, Marschall Vorwärts' Day!!

[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]Königliche Preußische Armee[/url]

[url="http://www.networkforgood.org"]Network for Good[/url]

[url="http://napoleonicwargaming.com"]Napoleonic Wargaming - INWC[/url]</center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by SLudwig</i>
You forgot Drouot.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well, LGI was not a corps in the strict sense of the word ... and more to the point, not used as such in the Waterloo campaign.

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D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant des Grenadiers à Pied de la Vieille Garde, "les Grognards"
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tony malone</i>
<br />True Bill, but he was more than just a good administrator and excellent trainer. His battlefield command performance was beyond reproach. I think his record shows him as Napoleon's best, and maybe only second to Napoleoon himself The battle of Aurerstadt showed his quality. Also in almost every other battle from 1805 - 1812, it was Davout that proved a true saving grace.

Maréchal Tony R.Malone, Comte d'Auvergne et Duc de Vauchamps: Division d'Infanterie de la Moyenne Garde; "The Guard may die, But it never surrenders".



<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hey, no argument from me. I am just looking at it from L'Emperor's vantage point.

If Napoleon had looked to DELAY the Allies then Davout's presence would have really been felt later on when he took on the rest of the Prussians and Austrians. Should Napoleon have been able to beat the Anglo-Allies and Prussians there is no doubt in my mind that he still would have had the Austrians to fight. They would have come on like the saviour of the situation.

Thus if Napoleon had been able to keep the Allies at bay and had gained Davout's forces then perhaps there might have been a better chance of seeing the Allies sent packing. The Russians wouldnt have made it to the theater of operations had Napoleon/Davout won IMHO. At least not in force.

What if is fun and I never argue over it. There just is no way of knowing what may have been.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]