American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

It is caused by a discussion about column formations. I am thinking about this question and begin to believe that the multiple days' scenarios with a long distance to march in WDS ACW get less reasonable because of this point.

In the game,

Infantry in the games can march 2.56 miles per hour along roads and march 30.7 miles if they march 36 turns (12 hours) without taking a break of even one turn. And they are fresh without fatigue after the march.

Even taking supply wagons into consideration, wagons in games can march 2.13 miles per hour and 25.6 miles in 12 hours.

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In history,

"The average for a march was between 8 and 13 miles per day, with 20 or more miles being more exhausting and less frequent. Also, the armies usually walked less after a battle, unless in retreat or in pursuit."

https://www.civilwarmed.org/quick-facts/onthego/

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"These examples show an average march speed of 1.79 miles per hour (MPH), under a variety of road and weather conditions."

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/march- ... gn.180972/

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But there are extreme examples of a forced march in the safe rear to reinforce in Gettysburg.

Law's Brigade: 25 miles/11 hours, 2.27 miles per hour

https://gettysburg.stonesentinels.com/c ... s-brigade/

VI Corps: 37 miles/17 hours, 2.17 miles per hour (another source said over 30 miles/19 hours)

https://gettysburg.stonesentinels.com/u ... 6th-corps/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VI_Corps_(Union_Army)

Are the examples accurate? Some of them even joined in fighting when arriving after the long march. It is crazy. But I suspect their combat effectiveness must decline significantly.

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Jackson's foot cavalry

They have a reputation, 30-50 miles one day.

"On July 18, 1861, Jackson’s brigade led the Army of the Shenandoah out of Winchester. In 25 hours, Jackson’s men covered 57 miles–23 on foot and 34 by train.
...
During the Second Manassas Campaign, Jackson’s foot cavalry marched 54 miles in 36 hours.
...
Both movements had far-reaching implications that helped determine the outcome of each campaign. They also underscore how effectively railroads could be used to move large bodies of troops. In July 1861, aided by the railroad, Jackson’s brigade moved at a rate of 2.28 miles per hour. In August 1862, using only their legs, the men of Jackson’s command traveled at 1.50 miles per hour. The difference of 0.78 miles per hour may not seem like much, but in July 1861, the movement of Jackson’s brigade and the rest of the Army of the Shenandoah had to be quick, and the railroad sped up the arrival of those Confederates at Manassas Junction in time to participate in the Battle of First Manassas."

https://emergingcivilwar.com/2022/05/25 ... -manassas/

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"Hardee postulated that a marching column moving on the double quick (160 steps per minute) could cover five miles in one hour, while Scott estimated that moving at the common time (90 steps per minute) would cover three miles in an hour. But these were merely estimates. Actual marching time during the Civil War varied a good deal. Maj. Gen. Gordon Granger once timed a column of 7,000 men in 1862, moving along a “pretty good road and marching well.” The column had no wagon trains but carried along fifteen ambulances and two batteries of four guns each. Granger found it took two hours for the rear of the column to reach the starting point of the van. Near the end of the war, Brig. Gen. Romeyn Ayres noted that the Fifth Corps, which had about 9,000 men in it, normally took “two hours to pass any given point.” On the march toward Five Forks, Virginia, his small division was the tail of the Fifth Corps column. Negotiating muddy roads with cavalry and wagon trains in the way, he could make only a mile per hour."

...

"Members of the Buell Court of Inquiry posed an interesting question to Granger—what was the shortest space along a single road that an army of 40,000 men would occupy? They spelled out the details—seven divisions with three brigades each, four regiments per brigade. There would be no cavalry, but it would include three batteries of five guns each and a train of one hundred wagons for every division. Granger worked on the problem overnight and gave his answer the next day. Such a column, he figured, would stretch for sixteen miles along a roadway. He calculated it with intervals of twenty-two paces between units, each man needing twenty-two inches of space. Granger also reasoned that every gun and wagon would need fourteen yards of space.

When asked if the column could maintain this length over the course of a long march, Granger answered emphatically in the negative. Even good troops on an average road would lengthen the column over time. After marching ten miles, the column would stretch from twenty-four to thirty-two miles instead of sixteen miles. As far as speed of marching, Granger thought that even with good management by officers over excellent roads, the column could only make about two miles per hour. If the roads were worse, then one and a half miles per hour over a time period of eight to ten hours would be a reasonable expectation"

——Civil War Infantry Tactics, Hess



(Besides, the length of the march column in games is based on the number of units instead of the number of men. It has a large error in most cases. The sides with larger-size units get an unfair advantage in road march. But that's another question. P.S. I found the Gettysburg game provided an OOB in which all units of both sides have been detached and divided into the around same size units. Around 250 men per infantry unit. 2 guns per artillery unit. 100 men per cavalry unit.)

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Compared with the actual outstanding examples, our soldiers of all qualities in games can march faster and further, march all day without rest, and not get fatigued.

_________________
BG Ashdoll Ren
3rd Division
II Corps / Army of Northern Virginia

"Days and weeks of sheer boredom, interspersed with times of stark terror!"

The Examples

I'm unsure about the examples given for the Union but as for 'Jackson's Foot Cavalry' everything indicates that it is true. His men were at one place then 'appeared' at another; when the distance is calculated and matched with the time taken, they had indeed travelled at a very fast rate earning them their nickname of 'Foot Cavalry'.
How did they do it? They were well trained and had Jackson spurring them on. They also had local knowledge of the area and they had Jackson's cartographer, Hotchkiss. As well as producing numerous detailed maps (link at https://www.loc.gov/item/2005625262/) he also produced one huge one of the Valley (link at https://www.loc.gov/item/99446754/). You will notice names written on many of the maps which were the people who lived there. Hotchkiss would talk with many of them and take detailed notes. Thus, not only was Jackson provided with great maps but also with details on what the terrain, tracks, trails and roads were like in differing weather conditions. Jackson could then have confidence that he could sent his men marching on the fastest route/s to get to their desired location. That's the benefit of local knowledge and Jackson used it to great effect.

Also, roads then were not the roads we know today. Below is a period image to THE main road through the Shenandoah, the Valley Turnpike, referred to in this article (link at https://www.nps.gov/cebe/learn/historyculture/the-valley-turnpike-company.htm) as "the best thoroughfare in the South".



The Wargames Interpretation of Road Benefit

Yes, the WDS games (like many boardgames as well) are exceedingly generous for units that gain the benefit of additional road [trail, road, pike] movement.
As you will see from this discussion on another forum (link at http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=505514), road columns are long, very long. Generally, and assuming good road and weather conditions, 2,500 infantry would take up a mile of road when marching in road column. A mile is roughly equal to 14 hexes so you should look at less than 200 men for every hex of road if they are to take advantage of the faster road movement in a true simulation. The games allow up to 1,000 men to occupy a hex (and this could include limbered artillery which took up a lot more room on a road) which means that instead of a realistic 2,500 men in a mile of road to utilise the faster movement you can have up to a whopping 14,000.
I don't know of any feasible way to overcome this in the games, or in the numerous boardgames that incorporate the same simulation error. I think it's just something we must tolerate in the interests of playability. Even with the generous limits permitted by many wargames I can still end up with big traffic jams so the warfare principle of not sending everyone 'down the same road' when moving to a desired position still has some value (even though you are given quite considerable leeway in most wargames).

_________________
Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

Another group provides me with an example of Jackson's foot cavalry from Return to Bull Run, John J. Hennessy.

"On the morning of August 26, Jackson's men marched from
Salem to White Plains, then onward to Thoroughfare Gap.
Thoroughfare represented the only potential obstacle to
Pope's rear now, for it could be easily defended by a small
force and the march seriously delayed. But no Federals
barricaded the place. At noon the Confederates passed
through the gap and pushed on to Haymarket， where
Munford's cavalry managed the first captures of the march so
far: “a full band with splendid instruments.” By 4 P.M. the
column reached Gainesville， a small cluster of buildings
where the Warrenton Turnpike crossed the Manassas Gap
Railroad. Stonewall must have been pleased. Thirty-two hours
had passed since the men broke the bivouac near Jeffersonton.
They had covered nearly fifty miles since and， though
exhausted, now stood within five miles of their goal， the
Orange and Alexandria Railroad. The Federals seemed totally
unaware of Jackson's presence."

Jackson covered 55 miles in 32 hours, at a speed of 1.7 miles per hour before the 2nd Battle of Manassas. It is imposing and crazy. But they were exhausted after such a march and there must be lots of stragglers on the road. Again, in our current game, the infantry (with different officers and generals) of various qualities can do better unrealistically than Jackson did. Faster without fatigue and stragglers loss.





Good discussion in the link. The historical examples are different from the estimates based on the manuals. The estimates based on the manuals seem too ideal.

I don't play Miniatures. But in Seven Years War/ Napoleonic War/ Civil War board games, there is a common way to simulate. Only march column (different from the attack column) formation with a lower stacking allowance in one hex can march along the road with road benefit. A unit with more men has to extend its tail to the road hex behind. You can see the extended counters behind combat units in the long road column in the picture.



For WDS ACW, in our running revised Gettysburg game, most units have been divided into small units around the same size (250 men per infantry unit). The length of the column of a corps is longer and more real. It is a possible solution to length. Though it caused a new problem, it breaks one regiment into several independent units which can move separately. Besides, maybe in multiple days scenarios, the road benefit should be reduced, like from 1 MP per road hex to 1.5 MP. 1.7 miles per hour. 20 miles one day (12 hours). But most gamers, including me, won't like it.

Anyway, wargames are just a simulation. A good wargame for entertainment has to balance complexity, reality, playability, and entertainment.

_________________
BG Ashdoll Ren
3rd Division
II Corps / Army of Northern Virginia

"Days and weeks of sheer boredom, interspersed with times of stark terror!"

Ashdoll, your observations are correct. I did a similar study some 10 years ago. There is a document posted at the ACW Engineering site. I came to a similar conclusion. The average marching speed was 1.7 - 1.8 mph. Given that averages always include extremes, the movement factors in the game align with :30 day turns.

One can change the PDT to reflect this movement speed depending upon one's preference for :20 or :30 day turns. Either can be implemented without making any other change to a scenario. For the former, movement factors would be 8 (infantry and artillery, 7-8 wagons), 16 (cavalry); the latter would be a change of the turn duration from 20 to 30. The PDT being used in a particular scenario can be viewed by opening the SCN in Notepad.

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MG Robert Frost

That's interesting. If such changes are so simple why are not done as a matter of course to all the games in the standard updates by WDS (and JTS prior to that)? [However, such a change would still not eliminate the ludicrous situation of up to 1,000 men occupying a 250 yard stretch of road yet still being able to utilise a road column. A similar situation with cavalry and artillery.]

_________________
Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

My post is to affirm Ashdoll's contention concerning marching speed. I have nothing to offer in terms of density, nor did I intend. The way the game system is structured, one would need to reduce unit size to whatever one felt to be the maximum size to occupy an individual road hex. Realistically, individuals would need to do this on their own. OOBs would need to change and whatever scenario in question built from scratch.

You pose the question of why WDS does not make these options available. Assuming you are not asking ME, I would guess the answer to be "Why should they?" This is the same movement system which has been in place since the Battleground days. Why offer an alternative? Some aspects of these games are highly flexible, and they would suggest that one change that to which one did not agree. WDS would need to issue duplicate PDTs and SCNs for every one of the Campaign series for each option. Just for clarity, I am not a paid spokesperson for WDS.

Blake Strickler asked me a question concerning MPs in his Stonewall at Gettysburg scenario. I was able to answer setting up a test scenario using the 4 turn opening fight (#3). I took what I had saved -- the "game" is in "progress" -- and changed the PDT to reflect :30 turns and reduced movement factors. I then loaded this "saved" game and everything immediately implemented.

So, it does work. "How easy is it? It's so easy even a Rebel can do it."

There is no "developer" site in the Club. Blake? There are individuals who have built scenarios and can give instructions as to how to proceed with use of PDTs, SCNs, and OOBs and how they tie together.

As for this specific topic, if a member wants to try one of the options mentioned, but doesn't feel comfortable with making the change, attach the PDT to an email and send it to me. I will make the change and return.

_________________
MG Robert Frost

I should correct a previous statement. The ACW Engineering site is technically a developer site, but it hasn't been utilized as such for some time. Any further efforts in this regard would depend upon Ken Miller's involvement at his discretion.

_________________
MG Robert Frost

_________________
Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

@Paul,

Why are not done as a matter of course to all the games in the standard updates by WDS (and JTS prior to that)?

My guess is that 1.7 - 1.8 mph is the average speed for a long-distance march in multiple days (monster scenarios). For short-distance march (close to the battlefield) in a single day (most scenarios in games), soldiers can march at a faster speed.

BTW, it is also related to the issue of column length. I read a record that said that, when closer to the battlefield/enemy, a commander (forgot his name) ordered formations to be more closed to beware of the enemy. (From "marching by the flank" to "single column of companies"?) It is obvious that the length would be much shorter. But one unit per hex, no matter its actual strength, is still ridiculous. (Now, I tend to break all regiments of more than 500 men into 2 units in oob in self-made scenarios.)


@Robert,

I know how to edit .pdt, .oob, and .scn.

One question. Sir, you seem familiar with the game software. I create an MP scenario with revised .pdt, .oob, and .scn. USA players can watch the replay of all turns normally, but CSA players can't watch the replay of certain turns. CSA would be skipped part of or all of the normal replay in several turns. Do you have any idea why and how to solve this problem?

(No one is opening multiple game windows when running their turn.)

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I saw "oob explained.pdf" and "pdf explained.pdf" by Gen Ken Miller have been contained in the "Manuals" folder in 4.01 Game folder (at least for Gettysburg). Anyone interested in creating a scenario can read them.

(I can say, by conjecture and trial, I've already figured it out how to read most data in these files, before reading the manuals. )

_________________
BG Ashdoll Ren
3rd Division
II Corps / Army of Northern Virginia

"Days and weeks of sheer boredom, interspersed with times of stark terror!"

Found your Enhanced Movement.pdf and other files in ACWCO Engineering Department and appreciate them.

_________________
BG Ashdoll Ren
3rd Division
II Corps / Army of Northern Virginia

"Days and weeks of sheer boredom, interspersed with times of stark terror!"

Ashdoll, I don't have any idea what would be causing the replay problem. The only thing I could possibly imagine is a change in visibility range? For example, visibility is 20 hexes. The 2nd player who moves in the turn (CSA) is visible within that range as seen by the Union in the replay. The turn advances and visibility is reduced to 10 hexes. The Union moves, but many units which were previously visible to the CSA are no longer so. One, or a handful, might move within 10 hexes of the CSA units. During the replay of the USA turn, the CSA would only see the latter. During the next CSA move, their units are all visible to these advanced USA elements. When the Union reviews the CSA replay, all or most of the CSA units would be visible.

If the replay "issues" occur during turns in which visibility changes, then I think this to be the cause. Other than this possibility, I have not a clue.

_________________
MG Robert Frost

Regarding Robert's comment. For you newcomers I started the Engineering site in 2008 after discovering the Cobexlaw site for the Nappy game series, wanted to have a place for CWB developers to find information on the game files to foster scenario development.
Originally it was on free sites but in 2018 I moved it to a pay site to get rid of the ads and remove any problems with exceeding limits.
In 2020 after I had helped out in updating the CWB manuals for WDS I offered Rich Hamilton pdf versions of my updated webpages for the PDT and OOB files in case the current site became no longer available either because I decided not to maintain it or something happened that I couldn't do so and he included them in the Manuals folder. I included the file I used to create the PDF and still have my original files and should they need further updates either I would provide WDS with an updated file or Rich has my permission to do so.

Real life issues and other commitments have reduced my time for upgrading the site, the code is old and should be redone and once I have caught up with my other commitments and get the other issues taken care of I hope to able to get to it.

Regarding the discussion about the problems with the game modeling real life marches. You have to remember the CWB series is based on the old Battleground game code. It was developed for tactical movement on a battlefield, light marching often at double time and does a decent job of duplicating those conditions.
The problem with the strategic movement over several days is it does not take into account the delays of breaking and making camp. The lead regiment might move off shortly after dawn but the last regiment could be several hours later before getting in place on the road. Like wise the lead unit would halt before dark to give the units behind time to close up and make camp.

Regarding the length of a column, yes you could get 1000 men into 125 yard hex (@10,000 sq.yd.), however 125 yards of road with standard 4 men abreast column would allow a maximum of 500 men if they were 1 yard apart, but on a route march the normal drill field spacing would double to closer to 2 yards reducing that to close to 250 men in column per road hex. Add in one hex between each unit for normal interval and reduce the movement to match Robert's Enhanced Movement file and you get closer to something like the average ACW march rate of 8-13 miles per day.

For some good comments on this subject look at http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=505514
"Comparing Coggins and Griffith and taking Coggins later reference to "tailing out" into account, it seems an infantry brigade of 2,000 to 3,000 men would occupy 1,200 to 2,000 yards of road, so-in rough accord with what Gwydion said-roughly a mile to a mile and a half for a 3,000 man infantry brigade."
About 10 CWB hexes for a 1500 man brigade.

_________________
Gen. Ken Miller



The McKeesport Union Guard

1/1/I
AotP

It is not. Sadly. The issue of replay is the Sword of Damocles for my self-made scenario. But thanks for your answer.


@ Ken

Thanks for your website and manuals. It is helpful. Self-made scenarios should always be an important part of the games. Blake's double-blind games impressed me.

Paul shared the same link. It is a good discussion.

_________________
BG Ashdoll Ren
3rd Division
II Corps / Army of Northern Virginia

"Days and weeks of sheer boredom, interspersed with times of stark terror!"

Ashdoll, it sounds as though your scenario is working correctly. You cannot affect the replay code in any manner. You state that the CSA player(s) can see the replay on some turns, but on other turns, nothing. This would indicate that the replay code is becoming corrupted on the Union side. Are all players running the same level of the game in question (4.01)? If so, is someone running some older version of Windows? If a replay fails, have the Union side resend in a zipped file. If it still fails, then you are in uncharted waters. I am going to assume it is not a bug in the WDS code. Whatever the cause, it is not your scenario. OOBs, PDTs and SCNs are all data files in text format. If you build such in an incorrect format, the program code will error immediately. If you enter a data variable which the program cannot handle, it should also error immediately. I have never seen otherwise.

If you pursue this and find an answer, I would be interested in such.

_________________
MG Robert Frost

Yes, I know, "Union corruption". Save me the Rebel trolling.

_________________
MG Robert Frost