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 Post subject: Re: JTS The Seven Years War is out!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:01 pm 
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Posts: 574
Location: USA
I hesitate to jump into the question of this club supporting the game for a few reasons. Part of it is the very obvious conflict of interest, and part of it is that I've only started to be semi-active in the very recent past again, so my voice should be that of the minnow.

But, I have personal mixed feelings on the issue.

On an obvious level, there is a part of me that would like to see the game supported, simply out of self-interest and ego-gratification. I would like to see the game go well, so we can do more. I also like to see people enjoy what I've spent so much time on.

On the other hand, this club is, and has been, tightly focused on Napoleonics. There are certainly connections between the games. Some soldiers in the 7YW are generals in the Nap games. (Hello Duke of Brunswick.) Also, switching between 7YW and RBR/Marengo gives the ability to see the evolution of warfare from late linear to the Revolutionary era, (and the further developments by the time of Leipzig into full blown Napoleonic warfare. However, even with those connections, the bright lines are relatively clear. The political change from the Cabinet Wars to the Revolution, and the tactical changes brought about by the Revolutionary Wars.

You can make an argument indeed for SYW, but then how far do you go? I can't give names/titles, but I can assure you that there are more M&P games coming. I CAN tell you that at least in the short term the War of the Austrian Succession is not one of them. What do you do then? The linkages from SYW to NAP are fairly clear, but how far bad do you want to go? The first M&P game was REN, and now we have the SYW. Even if we assume that they are bookends, think about what lies in between. WAS, WSS, War of the League of Augsburg, GNW, 30 Years War, Danubian Wars.... Obviously, as that list went on, it got less and less Napoleonic.

Still though, I don't think that a separate M&P Club is really viable, even with this new entry. It just won't get the "weight" of people and activity to make it work.

So, how do I feel? I am, as I said, mixed, and I see both sides of this issue. I would certainly say that it's something that would need to be done with discussion, not only with a few forum warriors, but even seeing what the larger membership thinks. It's certainly a fairly profound change to make the step.

I can tell you that the game is already set up for play at the Blitz, so there is at least that forum out there for games to be found.

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Feldmarschall Freiherr Gary McClellan
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Portner Grenadier Battalion
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 Post subject: Re: JTS The Seven Years War is out!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:27 pm 
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No, I would stop at the Seven Years War. The REN does not fit this club at all. Neither would a game on the Thirty Years War, ECW etc.

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 Post subject: Re: JTS The Seven Years War is out!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:27 pm 
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I guess we have to see where the series moves to and what comes next. Currently I'm not sure if SYW is closer to the Napi series or closer to REN, if more games come out one could judge if it's justified to add SYW here or not.

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Last edited by Christian Hecht on Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: JTS The Seven Years War is out!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:33 am 
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... I think the question is more like -do you draw the line at SYW? But what about the War of Spanish Succession, the War of Austrian Succession, the Great Northern War, or possibly even later than 1815... where is the line?

Personally it doesn't matter to me all that much if anything else gets included, because talking about the history, or even engine capabilities is really more what I would be interested in regardless of period.

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 Post subject: Re: JTS The Seven Years War is out!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:57 pm 
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(oops, put something in the wrong thread like a doofus. Copy/pasting where it belongs)

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IR44
Portner Grenadier Battalion
Austrian Army

Scenario Designer:
JTS Midway
JTS Seven Years War


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 Post subject: Re: JTS The Seven Years War is out!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:23 pm 
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As I've got a few minutes I thought I'd post a bit on something I've seen mentioned in different places.

Why aren't there more scenarios with lots of movement options? After all, a number of the scenarios (like say Zorndorf or Kunersdorf) have the forces pretty much in position to fight right away, and you're left with more slugging match than maneuver.)

There's a few reasons for that. First of all, I would like to point out that there are some scenarios that have "longer" versions which allow for more approach maneuver (Lobositz, Prague, Kolin, Rossbach, Leuthen come to mind.)

However, there are a few issues in to keep in mind here. I'm sure not everyone will agree, but here's the thought pattern.

First of all, as I've talked about before, these armies are pretty rigid compared to the armies of the Napoleonic Era. They had carefully prescribed march orders and followed some very clockwork type maneuvers. They didn't really have the operational freedom to simply change all of that on a whim and send troops off in new directions. If you notice the scenarios with approach marches, even then the march formation is designed to get into deployment fairly quickly. Honestly, in all of John's Blackpowder games, there's too much ability for players to send troops off here, there and everywhere, but with the army restrictions of the SYW, that is even more pronounced. The rules about no detached melee are in part designed to deal with that, but the setup of the scenarios does that as well.

Another issue is the nature of the scenarios that would create. You didn't necessarily have a huge number of "meeting engagements" in the war, especially among the larger battles. A very common theme was that one side would be dug into an attacking position, and the other would maneuver to attack them to best advantage. On many occasions, the defending side moved little if at all in response (Leuthen and Hochkirch would be good examples of that.) On others, there might be some shifting of reserves (Prague and Kolin would be examples of there) but beyond that, little overall movement. At Zorndorf and Torgau, the Russians and Austrians did reverse their position to face the opposite direction, but there was little movement beyond that. (Well, ok, at Leuthen, the Austrians did move some reserves. In the wrong direction. Oops.)

That means that in a game situation, you'd have a situation where one player would have the chance to move a great deal while the other would be stuck "fixed" until they could see the enemy movements. Not a terribly exciting game prospect if I'm the Russian at Zorndorf waiting for Frederick to decide where to attack from and hitting "end turn" because everyone is fixed.

Let's take Zorndorf as an example. The night before the battle, Frederick was N of the Russian army, so the Russians set up facing N. However, starting at 3:00 in the morning, Frederick sent his troops on a flank march across the Russian E flank all the way around the army, so they would get into position S of the Russian army to attack in the morning. In order to make that work in game, I would first of all have to set night moves as 15 minutes, otherwise the Prussians simply wouldn't have enough time to make the march. Second, the Russians would likely have to be fixed (other than the Cav pickets) leading to some pretty boring play for the first 20-25 turns of the game. Unless of course the Prussians decided to launch a night attack from the N, counting on the chaos and Russian Fixed units to give them the win. Bleh.

This is one of the reasons that Kolin and Torgau have the "Campaign in One" in game right now, where it gives the players the chance to decide on operational movements and different avenues of attack, while sidestepping most of the above issues. If they're popular, I can easily do them for some of the other battles (Zorndorf and Kunersdorf likely at the top of that list)

I will say that there will be some hypothetical scenarios in the upcoming expansion that will have a bit more maneuver possiblity. Then also Wilhelmstahl which is going to be a fairly wide open battle with Ferdinand attacking in three sectors and five columns.

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Feldmarschall Freiherr Gary McClellan
IR44
Portner Grenadier Battalion
Austrian Army

Scenario Designer:
JTS Midway
JTS Seven Years War


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