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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:31 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 6:38 pm
Posts: 1414
Location: Broken Arrow, OK, USA
Fair enough.

Now grab your brown bess and head down range. I'll use a M16 and allow you to get the feel of firing under fire and let us know how fast you reload and how many procedures you short cut when the adreniline is pumping.

BTW, stand still and stay right in front of me during this experiment it is the safest place to be ... and I have a bunch of rifle range targets that will bear witness to that <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Major Al Amos
1st U.S. Dragoons 1812-R

[url="http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/amos/CCC/1812regulars.htm"]<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/amos/CCC/chippewa_s.gif " border=0>[/url]


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:45 pm 
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Al- GOOD ONE!- I loved it!- that lightened me up considerabley- don't worry about our experiment- unless you come up to "White's of Their Eyes" range you are completely safe- now I have to go bandage myself, because I fell out of my chair laughing and hurt myself :)

Ens Dwight Conlan
Eastern Dept
3rd Brigade- 5th Regiment

MGen Dwight Conlan
Longstreets Corps
ANV

Lt Dwight Conlan
1/6 Artillerie a Chaval
ere Brig-2eme Div
Cavalerie Legere-II Corps
Armee du Nord


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2001 3:54 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 4:21 pm
Posts: 144
Location: United Kingdom
I'd recommend the adoption of a completely new game engine, with simultaneous movement plotted by both players in advance and then carried out by the computer. Perhaps all firing might be conducted by the computer at the nearest or most threatening enemy?

The rapidity with which units should be able to fire ought to depend on how much they moved (and for how much of the turn a suitable target presented itself), whether they fired the previous turn and, of course, on whether they're armed with muskets or rifles. Considering that most firing took place at close range, only militia, riflemen or light troops should shoot at medium to long range without specific orders. Of course ammunition supply should be more realistically dealt with, as well as the progressive fowling effect of black powder and the impact of smoke from repeated firing on visibility. (Eg. perhaps first volley might be at +10%, 2nd to 4th at normal effect, 5th & 6th at -10%, 7th to 9th at -20%, 10th to 12th at -30%, etc.) This would reduce battlefield casualties to more realistic proportions.

Ens Rich White
28th North Glos Rgt
Right Wing, British Army 1776


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2001 7:20 pm 
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Location: Broken Arrow, OK, USA
Ens White,

Knock yourself out <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Hope you know C++ <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Major Al Amos
1st U.S. Dragoons 1812-R

[url="http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/amos/CCC/1812regulars.htm"]<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/amos/CCC/chippewa_s.gif " border=0>[/url]


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2001 3:50 am 
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Just wanted everone to know that Rich wrote me a note explaining the workings and reasoning behind this thing- very considerate of him to do so- I just wanted to give the man his due- I still don't completely agree with it but I always give cudos where cudos are due- a public thanks to Rich

Ens Dwight Conlan
Eastern Dept
3rd Brigade- 5th Regiment

MGen Dwight Conlan
Longstreets Corps
ANV

Lt Dwight Conlan
1/6 Artillerie a Chaval
ere Brig-2eme Div
Cavalerie Legere-II Corps
Armee du Nord


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2001 5:19 am 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 8:49 pm
Posts: 734
Location: USA
Hi Dwight,

Just replied to your e-mail to the HPS account. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

I hear you on the not 100% agreement part, but hang in there. The system is good once you get comfortable with it. During testing I HATED it at first, but once I became used to it I thouroughly enjoyed it and don't really have any desire to play the multi-phase method anymore.

Now go find a Brit to beat up on! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

<HTML>
Lt. Col. Hamilton, New York Militia</HTML>



Edited by - Rich Hamilton on 12/08/2001 10:20:55


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2001 5:22 pm 
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Well, to backtrack in this topic slightly, I think one thing that helps in dealing with this is to as much as possible do things in your phase in groups.

If you move your units indivudually, you give many more opportunities for the "trigger" to go off, making you more vunerable to fire. Generally, unless you are trying to take advantage of road movement then, it's better to move in a group to lower the overall chance of triggering D-Fire.

Likewise, when firing in your offensive phase. I'll admit, I haven't gone and looked at the fire charts and decided if say 3 20-man units firing as one firegroup or as 3 individual shots is likely to cause more losses. On the other hand, I think you get an overall advantage in this system, because with the lower chance of D-fire, even if you give up a bit of potential casualities, you will take less D-fire and the potential casualities it can cause.

Gary McClellan
Private
36th Infantry
1812-R

Edited by - Gary McClellan on 12/10/2001 01:16:26


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2001 5:42 pm 
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Posts: 1414
Location: Broken Arrow, OK, USA
let's suppose we have two stacks (8 units each) of infantry firing at each other. if you fire your companies individually, you run the risk of each company returning fire. if they do, that could be 64 return fires to your 8 shots. fire as a group and it drops down to a maximum of 8. A ratio of one-to-one instead of the horific 8-to-1 you could suffer from individual fire.

64 shots gives the enemy a greater chance to inflict casualties than 8.

as for shooting in a group you will notice in the results box 8 numbers ... one for each unit firing. the number of casualies is the total of all the shots.

Gary is right. work in groups. the military calls them units <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>. more gamers need to use that concept - 1 regiment/battalion, not 8 companies.

Micro-managing individual company fire is as unrealistic as the high numbers of return fire being referenced at the beginning of this thread.

Battalions should fire, all at once on one target hex (it would be nice if casualties would be equalling distributed amongst all occupying the hex, but...) so select one target and shoot at it, if you eliminate it you cause morale problems for the surviving units in the hex.

this is linear warfare. companies fight in 3-ranks, 22" apart. each hex is 125 feet this would allow 204 men to fire from the front of a hexside.

I mention this only to point out that many of our regiments/battalions should remain stacked together in the same hex and not strung out over 4,5 or 8 hexes.

battlelines should be compact and well controlled. too often, we gamers scatter our units about the field as though they were tanks or modern infantry companies capable of independant operations.

just a thought.

Major Al Amos
1st U.S. Dragoons 1812-R

[url="http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/amos/CCC/1812regulars.htm"]<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/amos/CCC/chippewa_s.gif " border=0>[/url]

Edited by - Al Amos on 12/09/2001 22:51:56


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2001 6:30 pm 
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Am I mistaken or was the latest 76 patch supposed to tone down the automated defensive fire? If it was, as far as I can tell it didn't do squat! I sure hope Corinth is better. This is just about the silliest game engine that I've ever run across. All my games will be played with the old system, and they can take this new one and- never mind, this is supposed to be a family board.

Ens Dwight Conlan
Eastern Dept
3rd Brigade- 5th Regiment

Col Dwight Conlan
The Immortals Division
III Corps- ANV

Lt Dwight Conlan
1/6 Artillerie a Chaval
ere Brig-2eme Div
Cavalerie Legere-II Corps
Armee du Nord

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Lt Col Jerry Nelson
Aom, CSA


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2001 6:35 pm 
Al & Gary

Those were the most informative posts I have read in this forum. I, for one, thank you very much. Do you suppose that would apply to Corinth also?
Sarg. Jerry Nelson
2nd Bdg, 3rd Reg, Eastern Dept.


Lt Col Jerry Nelson
Aom, CSA


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2001 6:39 pm 
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Posts: 1414
Location: Broken Arrow, OK, USA
Jerry, thanks. applies to all of Tiller's titles. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Major Al Amos
1st U.S. Dragoons 1812-R

[url="http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/amos/CCC/1812regulars.htm"]<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/amos/CCC/chippewa_s.gif " border=0>[/url]


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2001 7:11 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2001 1:13 am
Posts: 658
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However, the effect is more extreme in 1776 and 1812 I think, just for the simple reason that in Corinth, the size of units and hex stacking limits means that generally (thought not always) you will have more units per hex in 1776 and 1812 than in Corinth.

Likewise in Eckmuhl, which also has the additional factors to consider that putting multiple units in line in one hex is not efficient, and you also have line and column pass through fire, which gives more reason to be a bit spread. Bit of a trade off there.

Gary McClellan
Private
36th Infantry
1812-R

Edited by - Gary McClellan on 12/10/2001 00:13:25


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2001 8:06 pm 
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In any case, returning to this before I go to bed, I as a rule find Defensive fire to be less effective (by a considerable margin) than offensive fire. I generally count on doing 2/3 of my fire casualites in my phase, rather than as defensive fire. And, I rarely worry about defensive fire breaking up an assault. Maybe in Eckmuhl if I have to deal with large amounts of artillery that can give me grief, but otherwise, not really.

It took me a while to figure out why, especially considering how some people have so much trouble with Defensive Fire, but I think it's caused by two things. As I said, I move/fire in groups, which minimizes defensive fire. Also, the way defensive fire works, only some units will fire in a given turn, while in offensive, you can arrange that all of yours who have a target can fire.

Gary McClellan
Private
36th Infantry
1812-R


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